maps that have secret grouped starting positions

by **rockfist** on Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:24 pm

Nut Shot Scott wrote:
rockfist wrote:As a general rule people should not join games in maps they aren’t familiar with. If they do that it doesn’t come up.

this is an absurd statement.

Ok yeah, I have two prior games on Antarctica and I got this nice PM from someone saying they are also learning the map and inviting me to play five games simultaneously with them then discuss the strategy after all five are done. Seems like a good idea to join.

by **Nut Shot Scott** on Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:48 pm

rockfist wrote:
Nut Shot Scott wrote:
rockfist wrote:As a general rule people should not join games in maps they aren’t familiar with. If they do that it doesn’t come up.

this is an absurd statement.

Ok yeah, I have two prior games on Antarctica and I got this nice PM from someone saying they are also learning the map and inviting me to play five games simultaneously with them then discuss the strategy after all five are done. Seems like a good idea to join.

funny, I got that same PM awhile back... brand new player but had like 50 Antarctica games under his belt. Nothing weird at all about that... :roll:

by **Swimmerdude99** on Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:21 pm

Nut Shot Scott wrote:
rockfist wrote:
Nut Shot Scott wrote:
rockfist wrote:As a general rule people should not join games in maps they aren’t familiar with. If they do that it doesn’t come up.

this is an absurd statement.

Ok yeah, I have two prior games on Antarctica and I got this nice PM from someone saying they are also learning the map and inviting me to play five games simultaneously with them then discuss the strategy after all five are done. Seems like a good idea to join.

funny, I got that same PM awhile back... brand new player but had like 50 Antarctica games under his belt. Nothing weird at all about that...

I think we all know who that player is

I can't tell if rockfist is being tongue in cheek or not about not joining maps you aren't familiar with. But obviously for anyone wanting to learn a new map, they can't do so without playing, and therefore cannot become familiar with one, without doing so. So that general rule would have most of us still only playing classic 8-[

by **Dukasaur** on Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:42 pm

t4mcr53s2 wrote:spot for a poll?
please start one if you know how

Only the originator of the thread can add a poll -- in this case, that would mean you.

Open your OP (original post) in Edit mode; scroll down, there's a "Poll Creation" tab on the bottom of the page, beside "Options". (Below the "Submit" button.) Let me know if you still have trouble with this.

by **Dukasaur** on Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:45 pm

Donelladan wrote:It's not that it's a completely secret information.
It's that you need to look for it.
When you play a map, you expect all the informations you need to be available on the map legend. And it's the case for the vast majority of the maps.
It's secret in that way, I can imagine many players do not check the forum topic of the map creation when playing a new map, and I don't think we can blame them for that. I think they shouldn't have to.

Furthermore, the map creation threads are very long, and often there are twists and turns (something was changed, then later changed back.) Even if you know what you're looking for, it can be confusing.

by **rockfist** on Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:35 am

swimmerdude99 wrote:
Nut Shot Scott wrote:
rockfist wrote:
Nut Shot Scott wrote:
rockfist wrote:As a general rule people should not join games in maps they aren’t familiar with. If they do that it doesn’t come up.

this is an absurd statement.

Ok yeah, I have two prior games on Antarctica and I got this nice PM from someone saying they are also learning the map and inviting me to play five games simultaneously with them then discuss the strategy after all five are done. Seems like a good idea to join.

funny, I got that same PM awhile back... brand new player but had like 50 Antarctica games under his belt. Nothing weird at all about that...

I think we all know who that player is

I can't tell if rockfist is being tongue in cheek or not about not joining maps you aren't familiar with. But obviously for anyone wanting to learn a new map, they can't do so without playing, and therefore cannot become familiar with one, without doing so. So that general rule would have most of us still only playing classic

I think you should review a map before you join it. If you don't at least pull up a map under "create game" and look at it you are being negligent if you join. If there is a play guide to a map and you don't read it, well its really your fault if you miss things about the map.

I've had to lead maps in clan games that I've never played before (a small handful of times) and I did considerably more than looking at the map and reading play guides in terms of research. That being said, I do believe some people just naturally "get" certain maps from the first time they play them. I have a few maps like that and I also have a few maps that I took numerous painful beatings to learn and still am not great on.

by **Doc_Brown** on Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:00 pm

I don't think it's possible to update the text on most maps. A lot of the map developers have left the site, and the various graphics files used to generate the maps are no longer available. This is why there are a few maps with clear issues that simply can't be fixed. Also, if you start going down that road, should you do it for every map with at least partially defined start locations (e.g. in Middle Ages, you always get a Palace and a Square or in Pot Mosbi, you always get a tribe plus the territory adjacent to it)? Or call out all territories that initially start as neutral?
A lot of the map threads have an image of the start locations. Otherwise, it's easiest just to learn the map by experience. The only other idea I could offer would be to have a Map XML interpreter that reads the appropriate XML file and provides a human-readable list of territories in each start position and a list of all starting neutrals. This is probably best done as an add-on.

by **Nut Shot Scott** on Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:25 pm

rockfist wrote:
I think you should review a map before you join it. If you don't at least pull up a map under "create game" and look at it you are being negligent if you join. If there is a play guide to a map and you don't read it, well its really your fault if you miss things about the map.

I've had to lead maps in clan games that I've never played before (a small handful of times) and I did considerably more than looking at the map and reading play guides in terms of research. That being said, I do believe some people just naturally "get" certain maps from the first time they play them. I have a few maps like that and I also have a few maps that I took numerous painful beatings to learn and still am not great on.

that's all fine and well man and i agree that if you haven't played a map, taking a look at it is something that someone should do first as is reading all of the instructions and fine print ON THE MAP, but you can't expect the vast majority of people to go searching for a forum to find a convoluted thread to maybe, possibly find a map in which the start positions are grouped a certain way therefore giving someone in the know a distinct advantage. this isn't tactical or something that you can find out by simply looking at the map under "create game". it's secret information that should, at the very least, have an asterisk or some way to indicate on the map that says something to the effect of "this map has specific starting groups that are not apparent unless you have played the map a shit ton or you go to this link to see what they are". i'm not mad about it but i think it's bullshit that someone can play thousands of games and not have any idea that they are getting periodically screwed on some maps because their opponent happens to have information about that map that is not in any way indicated as existing. how about even just a sticky on the map foundry or general discussion forum with a list of all the maps in which this is the case and a link to the correct and accurate update within the map foundry showing all of these positions and a link to said thread on the "maps" tab for each map?

by **tpotter7704** on Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:28 pm

I have been around for a while and did not know this. Why should I have to go and look for it.

I have been a complainer on this site about various things add this to the list. The so caller helpers mentors moderators are here to get your money but not to advance you to there level. they would never tell you about it as it would put them on a level playing field they wouldnt want that.

by **Evil Semp** on Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:52 pm

tpotter7704 wrote:I have been around for a while and did not know this. Why should I have to go and look for it.

I have been a complainer on this site about various things add this to the list. The so caller helpers mentors moderators are here to get your money but not to advance you to there level. they would never tell you about it as it would put them on a level playing field they wouldnt want that.

The only thing the mods get out donating our time is free premium. You said you are a complainer on this site. Why not become a helper? I will even help you help.

Start some 1v1 on the map that got you started on this and we can take notes together. Please put your dice where your keyboard is and we can do this together. I do believe there is a BETA, maybe we can do it there.

The dice are in your court.

by **Swimmerdude99** on Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:25 pm

Nut Shot Scott wrote:
rockfist wrote:
I think you should review a map before you join it. If you don't at least pull up a map under "create game" and look at it you are being negligent if you join. If there is a play guide to a map and you don't read it, well its really your fault if you miss things about the map.

I've had to lead maps in clan games that I've never played before (a small handful of times) and I did considerably more than looking at the map and reading play guides in terms of research. That being said, I do believe some people just naturally "get" certain maps from the first time they play them. I have a few maps like that and I also have a few maps that I took numerous painful beatings to learn and still am not great on.

that's all fine and well man and i agree that if you haven't played a map, taking a look at it is something that someone should do first as is reading all of the instructions and fine print ON THE MAP, but you can't expect the vast majority of people to go searching for a forum to find a convoluted thread to maybe, possibly find a map in which the start positions are grouped a certain way therefore giving someone in the know a distinct advantage. this isn't tactical or something that you can find out by simply looking at the map under "create game". it's secret information that should, at the very least, have an asterisk or some way to indicate on the map that says something to the effect of "this map has specific starting groups that are not apparent unless you have played the map a shit ton or you go to this link to see what they are". i'm not mad about it but i think it's bullshit that someone can play thousands of games and not have any idea that they are getting periodically screwed on some maps because their opponent happens to have information about that map that is not in any way indicated as existing. how about even just a sticky on the map foundry or general discussion forum with a list of all the maps in which this is the case and a link to the correct and accurate update within the map foundry showing all of these positions and a link to said thread on the "maps" tab for each map?

Yeah, I think expect people to scrub the forums to learn all the info is kinda silly, so saying not to join a map you don't know yet, is kinda setting a high bar that people probably can't even know is out there. Which brings us back to what t4 is trying to highlight

by **ZaBeast** on Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:29 pm

Also you can fall on a map you don't know by playing random, which a lot of autotournaments use

by **Hooch** on Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:43 am

ZaBeast wrote:Also you can fall on a map you don't know by playing random, which a lot of autotournaments use

Between MAD's and ES's words, I think people need to step up, trawl through the development discussion map threads and collate the strategy points that are mentioned in those threads.
I imagine some are pre, NUKE, ZOMBIE, PARACHUTE etc.
That is assuming people aren't prepared to stump up with what is known already.

Things that I think should be a given are, if not strategy available at least on the Map thread(Discussion or otherwise), it needs to be clear that some points are always starting points and some points are always neutral and what value of troop is on those points.

I don't expect NUKE or Zombie strats to be put out there, but ESC, FLAT and No Spoils, maybe, but certainly as the original thread was about, starting points etc.

You make a great point about random.

Hooch

by **betiko** on Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:12 am

I know that on some maps after playing them quite a bit I discovered some paterns, which were confirmed by checking the atlas. I mean, if people are dumb enough not to find patterns even if they play something for 15 years, don't do any research or ask other members, well, too bad for them. They are not trying to improve. Why should people aquiring certain knowledge through experience and research should be seen as unfair for not sharing? You share with whomever you wish to. It doesn't guarantee wins either.. just a better understanding of map mechanics.

by **t4mcr53s2** on Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:36 am

postby Dukasaur on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:42 pm
Only the originator of the thread can add a poll -- in this case, that would mean you.

Open your OP (original post) in Edit mode; scroll down, there's a "Poll Creation" tab on the bottom of the page, beside "Options". (Below the "Submit" button.) Let me know if you still have trouble with this.(4)

thanks duk..btw this is another example of something I could have known if I had read every forum topic title one day instead of playing games... but I think many people play these games without knowing that there is a lot of value , or where in the thousands of forums the most valuable ones exist …

I would propose some addition under the about the game tab something more welcoming to newcomers (as well as old timers) to give them a chance to be more quickly competitive, along the lines of
" there are many strategy threads about individual maps and settings, and valuable strategies about attacks, dice odds and game play, as well as a SoC training academy
and here are a half dozen links to of them, and there are more in the forums that you may find equally or more valuable " and link
the old strategy guide page,
the map XML page, school for cooks ,
The thread about whether/when to attack 3 vs 1 , the first moves advice on school for cooks site ,
and even create a page listing the names of the 20+ maps with fixed starting positions

E.G. predetermined groupings of starting terts on these maps
http://www.conquerclub.com/maps/
Austerlitz, Austrum, Balkan Colesium;Eurasia; Eurasia Mini,Flanders,Gilgamesh, Hive ,Holy Roman Empire,Poker Club, Portland, Rail South America, Salem's Switch,Spanish Armada, The three Kingdoms of China, The Three Kingdoms of Korea, Thyneseal , Tribal War Florida, Tribal War Israel, Vancouver, WWI Gallipoli

by **t4mcr53s2** on Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:29 am

POLL ADDED

by **Evil Semp** on Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:09 pm

What could Big Wham offer to get you to step up and volunteer? Would free premium and a name in color be enough? If not Why would you expect others to do it?

I agree that it would be nice to know about starting positions on certain maps. It doesn't bother me enough to go out a learn those positions or encourage others to do it for me.

I would think that if it bothered you enough you would have taken me up on the offer I made in a previous post.

Here is the quote from my previous post.

Evil Semp wrote:The only thing the mods get out donating our time is free premium. You said you are a complainer on this site. Why not become a helper? I will even help you help.

Start some 1v1 on the map that got you started on this and we can take notes together. Please put your dice where your keyboard is and we can do this together. I do believe there is a BETA, maybe we can do it there.

The dice are in your court.

by **Nut Shot Scott** on Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:11 pm

Evil Semp wrote:What could Big Wham offer to get you to step up and volunteer? Would free premium and a name in color be enough? If not Why would you expect others to do it?

Is that an open offer? Free premium for a year and I'll happily spend some time to compile this information into a single thread. I don't even need a colorful name.

by **t4mcr53s2** on Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:36 pm

betiko wrote:I know that on some maps after playing them quite a bit I discovered some paterns, which were confirmed by checking the atlas. I mean, if people are dumb enough not to find patterns even if they play something for 15 years, don't do any research or ask other members, well, too bad for them. They are not trying to improve. Why should people aquiring certain knowledge through experience and research should be seen as unfair for not sharing? You share with whomever you wish to. It doesn't guarantee wins either.. just a better understanding of map mechanics.

I suspect the week before you checked the patterns in the atlas you weren't dramaticly more dumb and not trying to improve...(jk)

but we can all create different straw men to prove our points

the ones I think of are the relative newbies with a few hundred games who pbut premium ,, join the salem swith tournament and lose every game, and quit, or get invited to play some poker club get creased enough that they suggest a switch and get invited to one of the other maps... I just dont know that cc's future is so assured that we should have a system that makes it unlikely those unfortunates will stick around

It's not like this is really hard one knowledge for those of us who learned it by being in a clan that happens to share the knowledge with all the members

by **JJ41375** on Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:20 am

swimmerdude99 wrote:
Nut Shot Scott wrote:
rockfist wrote:
Nut Shot Scott wrote:
rockfist wrote:As a general rule people should not join games in maps they aren’t familiar with. If they do that it doesn’t come up.

this is an absurd statement.

Ok yeah, I have two prior games on Antarctica and I got this nice PM from someone saying they are also learning the map and inviting me to play five games simultaneously with them then discuss the strategy after all five are done. Seems like a good idea to join.

funny, I got that same PM awhile back... brand new player but had like 50 Antarctica games under his belt. Nothing weird at all about that...

I think we all know who that player is

I can't tell if rockfist is being tongue in cheek or not about not joining maps you aren't familiar with. But obviously for anyone wanting to learn a new map, they can't do so without playing, and therefore cannot become familiar with one, without doing so. So that general rule would have most of us still only playing classic

Even I know who that player is...if it means anything.

I know I don't go looking through where the starting spots when I first played new maps. I just joined games a tried to learn from those games. If I enjoyed a map I kept playing it...otherwise I would try to avoid it.